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Does wellness lead to a better death?
Old age in this country does not appear to be much fun for most. The youth are whooping it up and taking their health for granted, the majority of the middle aged seems poised to accept extra weight and a slow decline of health, and the lives of the old are dominated with disease. Has our society accepted (or absorbed) the belief in their collective conscious that a decline into disease and misery is inevitable?
Any thoughts (deep or shallow) on this subject, would be appreciated.
In Reply to: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 23, 2004 at 22:52:25:
Hi FD,
I don't think they accepted it. Nobody wants to be sick or feeble. I just sonlt think they know which way to go. They think that doctors are the answer and they belive them most of the time. They also get confused with hundreds of different diets and different opinions pulling them in different directions. They hear that something is good for them one day and the next somebody finds out that it's not and vice versa. No wonder they are a confused bunch. Of course there are a lot of those who don;t care or accept it as way of living and getting older, that it's a natural process or are just plain too lasy to make an effort.
In Reply to: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 23, 2004 at 22:52:25:
"Does wellness lead to a better death?"
Yes, I believe it does. When I've practiced wellness seriously, I've seen a difference in my ability to fight off disease and to have more energy. And there's also a psychological element involved. If you know you're doing the right thing, then you inherently feel stronger and have more confidence.
I know I got rid of some ovarian cysts by accelerated SR. I told my obgyn that she would never have the option of touching my ovaries, and that I would take care of it myself. She looked at me like I was just a dumb shit, and she was this big intellectual doctor. We're the same age, so it was weird. Anyway, within two months the cysts were gone, she was shocked, and said, "well, just keep doing what you're doing". Haha, I sure did.
Unfortunately so much of our culture has fallen into the patterns you have described above, but that doesn't invalidate wellness. Take a good look at the people that are practicing wellness correctly. If you're satisfied with their results, then you should focus on living that kind of lifestyle. The world is filled with all kinds of stimuli, it's up to us to determine what's right, and to filter out the junk.
You can do it!!!
In Reply to: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 23, 2004 at 22:52:25:
FW, i think your thoughts on this are qutie possible, im young (20) and ALL the young people i know drink, party, and eat junk food daily, with not many visible problems to show for it. I think people take for granted their good health sometimes, and abuse it to the point that they eventually arent healthy anymore. Im saddened to deal with health problems at such a young age, but grateful I found this board so that my years to come may be healthy ones.:)
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by gabriella [180.890] on July 24, 2004 at 00:19:01:
Hi Gabriella,
That sounds wonderful that you showed her! ;-)
What form of meditation were you practising at the time? Centerpointe?
In Reply to: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 23, 2004 at 22:52:25:
Wellness Should slow the decline or illness that age will bring on. The machine will weaken and wear out.
I think like machinery, there are ways one learns how to take care of them to extend the life and minimize breakage. Figuring that out, sometimes takes research and experiences. To me, Dr's are like mechanics, they know how to do some things but not the things that really optimize function, except what they are Told is the best way, which may not be the best or best for the patient. Then, some things take too much effort and don't bring the income.
I guess like machinery, different humans may have a higher frequency of repair and type of use can affect state of health. Not pushing the system harder than it's limits will cause damage or if some outside force or source damages it, there will be problems. Many things can happen and the weaker ones will be damaged.
With humans, metal attitude comes into play. Some are knocked down and depressed with what befalls them while other push through problems even if draging a leg. I guess it depends on how you view life and if you see a problem bigger than it is or lesser ?
To me, drugs are a big problem, unless it promotes normal function, but I wouldn't depend on them since they usually have a downside. Using them as a spare tire may be OK but not for daily use.
In Reply to: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 23, 2004 at 22:52:25:
Wellness will give you a beter quality of life as you age and the peace of mind that you did all you could to take the best care of your gift of life..Silver Fox!
In Reply to: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 23, 2004 at 22:52:25:
Thanks, FW for the pertinent question and thanks to all who responded.
The only thing proven so far is that wellness prolongs functional life and delays the onset of degenerative conditions until much later in life. Frieze et al.
Walt
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by Blissy [4.275] on July 24, 2004 at 04:05:29:
Thanks Blissy Maria! It was good for her to see that wellness can work. Actually at the time I was not doing Centerpointe, I was doing intense deep breathing, practically all day and evening, as much as I could possibly do.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by gabriella [151.890] on July 24, 2004 at 11:08:02:
Hi again
Can you share with me those deep breathing exercises when youget a chance?
Would love to try them.
P.S. How's your studies going? So busy here lately. Just not enough hours in a day. (sigh!)
TIA
Maria
In Reply to: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 23, 2004 at 22:52:25:
I think Americans are in denial when contemplating the aging process, they assume pharmaceutical companies will invent solutions to make their lives better, despite facts to the contrary.
In Reply to: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 23, 2004 at 22:52:25:
Old age is not much fun for people from ANY country, so this topic is more about humanity than nationality or ethnicity. In this respect, no country on earth is ideal: each has its own, specific problems.
That said, different cultures do perceive aging differently. The Chinese tradition, for instance, encourages prevention as a measure to delay (and sometimes overcome) the aging process. And we don't have this "play hard, die young, die beautiful" mentality, because the concept of moderation is deeply imbedded into the Chinese collective consciousness and lifestyle, and thus people there generally abuse their body much less than here, especially food-wise. (On the other hand, about 2/3 of Chinese men smoke. Yuck!)
To me, young people in the U.S. don't seem to have good health either. From what I have seen, because of poor diet, soft drinks and overconsumption of white sugar etc., the American youngsters are not really healthy (asthma hyperactivity, poor concentration, boredom, emotional instability, overweight--to name just a few of their problems). Maybe their body can withstand dietary (and other) "abuse" a bit better than the old, but generally speaking, they don't really have true health on the mental, physical, and emotional level.
Regardless of country, I think the human race as a whole is pretty screwed up now.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by Blissy, Maria [4.4] on July 24, 2004 at 23:04:49:
Sure Blissy.
The deep breathing exercises are very easy. You just take in the air through your nose and let it fill your lower stomach. Hold your breath for a few seconds [every few times only], and then let it out through your nose.
The reason I started doing this is because in addition to 40 minutes of concentrated SR, this technique kept me in a relaxed state as much as humanly possible. Sometimes I was much too relaxed. But I was trying to get rid of those cysts, and I figured stress might have something to do with them.
Well studies are on hold until late Aug. We have a few months break, thank GOD!!!! But I've been job hunting and doing some temporary work for an interior designer whom I've wanted to work for.
How about you, how's your job, your hubby, and all your explorations?
gabby
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by bing [312.10] on July 24, 2004 at 23:46:00:
Hi bing,
Funny, when I posted this question hoping to stimulate some ideas for a writing project, I thought to myself, now where is bing when I need her? So I'm glad you showed up. I was wondering about how the Chinese and other countries fared where wellness, or at least a portion of wellness, is practiced. I thought you might paint a prettier picture, but I appreciate your honesty and insight.
So perhaps the minority of wellness practitioners, those now truly seeking whole health from a mental, physical, and spiritual perspective, are a new breed and thus an experiment on how old age and death will be experienced by this way of living. This leads to another question, which I will post later (so stick around - btw, you missed a Woody posting a couple of weeks ago).
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by peterb [27.23] on July 24, 2004 at 23:09:04:
I think that's a good point. I actually remember thinking that way myself when I was a youngster, and having a conversation with friends about the miracles of modern medicine and how when we grew older we would probably live much longer lives (maybe even forever) because of these miraculous drugs and procedures. Man, was I astoundingly ignorant or what?
In Reply to: Re: Project related question (Archive in wellness.) posted by Walt Stoll [9.8] on July 24, 2004 at 08:40:39:
So, do you think the new breed of wellness practitioners, those seeking whole health from a mental, physical, and spiritual perspective, are an experiment on how old age and death will be experienced? Or is it already known but lacking in documentation?
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by gabriella [180.890] on July 24, 2004 at 00:19:01:
Hi gabriella,
Congratulations on your success.
You crack me up - I appreciate the pep talk, but I think you might be taking me a bit too literally again. Although my health is not yet perfect, I no longer really "try" to practice wellness, I pretty much am wellness in all that I do. The question was more of an idea-stimulating question for a writing project than an advice-based question.
Anyway, I think, in most cases, I agree that wellness will lead to better old age. A better death though? It's hard to say. Let's face it, if we look at the question from a wilderness perspective, nature is cruel. Still, it can't hurt and it makes sense to live a healthier lifestyle, and then chances will be that death might come more peaceful from a less broken down machine.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by WOW [1317.457] on July 24, 2004 at 00:02:51:
Hi Wow,
I think there is also an underlying theme many people live by, and that is that I'm going to die anyway so I might as well enjoy what I want now, and what they enjoy is usually bad for them. So by not being in a good place mentally and spiritually, they indulge in a harmful physical lifestyle. They don't want to be sick, but they don't think they'll get sick (and then when they do, they end up here on this board).
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 08:29:07:
The picture is still pretty--from my perspective. It's important to see the complexities in this, though: how well one enjoys the "golden years" (and all the other years, for that matter) is really up to the individual's decisions, choices, and efforts etc.
Coincidently, this topic actually is very closely related to what I do right now, i.e. introducing the traditional Chinese healing arts to the west, especially the concept of prevention, the arts of how to nurture life, and how to harmonize the bodymind with nature.
So I missed a Woody post. darn. He will post it again, right?
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by Vince F [173.9] on July 24, 2004 at 05:25:35:
Ah Vince, we understand that wellness gives the machine a better chance of operating longer and better into old age, but will the machine break down more peacefully (or humanely?) at the very end, through the practice of wellness?
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by c. elizabeth [117.74] on July 24, 2004 at 02:00:48:
Good luck c.e., you have a better chance of living better in the long run, mentally, physically, and spiriturally than your fellow youngsters taking their health for granted.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by bing [312.10] on July 25, 2004 at 10:55:55:
Here's what interests me (and I'm not sure if I really even understand how to approach this topic accurately): If we look at nature, and how cruel it can be even to those animals living harmoniously in the wild, what exactly are we trying to harmonize with (understand I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here)? Can this harmony, if we can attain it, lead to a more peaceful death? The movies sometimes like to romanticize this concept, often seen by some great warrior (usually Asian) passing into death in a kind of meditative and relaxed state, as if he were truly one with nature or spirit or all that is.
I don't know how to find that Woody post. I'll do a brief search and if I can find it I'll provide a link (although I'm not sure there's anything new in it for you - more brother stuff).
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 11:27:13:
Well that wasn't so hard. I found the link plus another posting on a bear story. I don't know how to post two links in one message, so this will take two posts.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 11:37:18:
I guess this attached story contrasts with the other.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by gabriella [180.890] on July 24, 2004 at 00:19:01:
"Does wellness lead to a better death?"
"Has our society accepted (or absorbed) the belief in their collective conscious that a decline into disease and misery is inevitable?"
"Any thoughts (deep or shallow) on this subject, would be appreciated."
____
Yeah, I certainly did take you literally FW, and I earnestly tried to answer your questions as did everybody else. From what I see though sometimes your intentions aren't always as straightforward as they appear. I don't know when to take you seriously or not, so I usually do, but I apologize if I misunderstood your original itentions.
I do have a tendency to be positive on this board and in certain aspects of life, and perhaps that comes across as a "pep talk". I see it's not really appreciated here so I will stop and make myself more scarce. It was never meant to make you or the person feel inadequate in any way, it's just my way of GIVING. I'm really glad though that there are people here that you feel understand you, and that you can relate to, that’s such a good feeling, I’d like it myself!
“A better death though? It's hard to say. Let's face it, if we look at the question from a wilderness perspective, nature is cruel.”
Yes, but here again you asked the question, “Does wellness lead to a better death? “ I was just responding to it, and what I meant was that if one leads a better life [practiced wellness], they’re bound to pass on in a better way [even though most people would prefer to stick around].
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyway, best of luck on your writing projects.
gabriella
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 08:53:49:
See the post above, I made a mistake and indented in the wrong place.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by gabriella [87.890] on July 25, 2004 at 11:45:04:
Hi gabriella,
You have a sensitive soul, that's what I like about you, but it can make interacting over the internet a challenge. My post was definitely intended to be a serious question. The "You can do it!!" response is what felt like a pep talk, and although I don't mind this, I was just trying to give you a nudge and show where I think you misunderstood the nature of my question.
I've not really sought advice from this board for years. Almost all (if not all) of my posts/questions for along time here are intellectually based questions. Since this board is about giving advice, I always get advice-like responses. Even those can be beneficial, because I'm trying to stimulate some ideas, and I never know what information may be useful as I write. In some ways it's not the best place to ask these questions, but in other ways it is perfect because I often get a wide variety of responses from all walks of life.
Sometimes, part of the problem, is that I'm dealing with a theme, and it's hard to wrap my arms around the subject and come up with the proper way to ask the question. See my responses to bing for perhaps a better clarification (albeit an evolving one) on the subject.
Now your "yes" answer to the question brings out several more questions, because if we study our belief, and I think most of us probably share this belief that wellness gives us a better chance of a more peaceful, humane death, we have to wonder are we pulling the wool over our eyes, given the often cruel nature of nature. I don't know the answer to this, but I like to ponder the question.
Hope you don't become "scarce" over this.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 11:37:18:
You really have something there with the 3 paralell and interconnected themes on isolation, all of which are well-started but worth further exploration, especially on their different backgrounds and contexts and outcomes etc. For instance, what caused these isolations? or why do they isolate themselves? what are the consequences of these isolations, on the personal, familial, and social level? How much of society these isolations represent in this age?--these are all rhetorical questions, of course, but can be integrated into Woody's search for meaning.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 11:27:13:
Interesting that you choose to focus on the cruelness of nature, and on death. Why?
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 12:15:23:
Hi FW,
"You have a sensitive soul, that's what I like about you, but it can make interacting over the internet a challenge."
Well over the years I've been so dead on in my feelings and intuitions about people and situations that I have come to really trust them. Sometimes I'll come to conclusions or react immediately, without all the appearant data that others seem to need, but most of the time I end up being right, so I just go with it. I need to remember that the internet may not be the best place for me to express that side of myself. On this board I could have discussed my conclusions many times over, but I think I do pretty well keeping a lid on it, I try REALLY hard to anyway.
_______
"I've not really sought advice from this board for years. Almost all (if not all) of my posts/questions for along time here are intellectually based questions...I'm trying to stimulate some ideas, and I never know what information may be useful as I write."
I shall keep that in mind from now on. Hopefully you don't think of me as a simple doofas, especially since I'm an artist, am philosophical, and I also like to write. I just didn't know the real meaning of your existence here, but now I do.
______
"Sometimes, part of the problem, is that I'm dealing with a theme, and it's hard to wrap my arms around the subject and come up with the proper way to ask the question."
Knowing all this makes a huge difference in how one reacts with you. It's almost like you're seeking something that you're not really sure of, and if you find it you're thrilled, but if not, then you're dissastisfied to a degree. It's like an artist who's looking for just the right subject to paint, knowing that it will hit them in the face when they see it, and until then nothing is worthy enough.
________
"See my responses to bing for perhaps a better clarification (albeit an evolving one) on the subject."
Yep, I see the connection, but from what I've heard you and Bing have communicated outside this forum, so she certainly has a good idea of where you're coming from, and that helps.
______
"Now your "yes" answer to the question brings out several more questions, because if we study our belief, and I think most of us probably share this belief that wellness gives us a better chance of a more peaceful, humane death, we have to wonder are we pulling the wool over our eyes, given the often cruel nature of nature. I don't know the answer to this, but I like to ponder the question."
I'm not sure there is a blanket answer to this question. For some, they follow a healthy lifestyle and pass peacefully. For others they do all the right things and still get screwed.
Life is volatile, life is unfair, life is wonderful, life is terrible; and most of all life is full of surprises.
Why are some people born rich, beautiful, talented, and brilliant while others are born ugly, cruel, retarded, and miserable? We can only do what we think is right, what we're comfortable with, but we must also be prepared for the outcome not being what we expect.
If I were to venture a guess, I'd say you're interested in why life is not fair, why it's not formulaic, why it surprises us. Maybe part of the answer is in the power of thought, it's invisible but has tangible effects....
_______
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by bing [312.10] on July 25, 2004 at 12:36:20:
I'm not sure if focus is the right word - just philosophically interested. Maybe it's my nature, but I think it's shared by many.
Having said that, I recognize your question as a loaded one. Are you saying that we westerners focus too much on the negative, on our demise, in contrast to other society's. But even if that's true, does that make the question irrelevant? After all, the cruel side is still a side, it exists, as does death, and so why not be interested in it as a subject. Otherwise, to avoid the question is to live in denial. If you avoid one side of the coin, it would seem impossible to live in harmony, unless harmony is based on the saying: "ignorance is bliss."
So I still wonder, especially in your teachings, what are we trying to harmonize with (I hope I'm not sounding as if I'm trying to challenge you into an all-knowing answer, as I doubt it exists - the discussion itself provides me with the food for thought for the feast I'm digging into)?
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by bing [312.10] on July 25, 2004 at 12:18:43:
Yes, I've been grappling with all of those questions (I've only shown an excerpt, there's much more to this). In a nutshell, that isolation, and all its unhealthiness, can be passed on from generation to generation, until someone wakes up and says enough, it stops with me.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by gabriella [87.890] on July 25, 2004 at 13:04:38:
Hi gabriella,
I certainly don't think you're a doofas.
"It's almost like you're seeking something that you're not really sure of, and if you find it you're thrilled, but if not, then you're dissastisfied to a degree."
I think you just summed up nicely what the creative process can often be like: facing that blank page, not sure of what you're looking for, thrilled at times and disappointed at others.
"I'm not sure there is a blanket answer to this question."
Aye, and there's the rub. I still like to ask the question, though, to see what comes up. Isn't that the nature of philosophy?
"If I were to venture a guess, I'd say you're interested in why life is not fair, why it's not formulaic, why it surprises us."
Not at all. That never occurred to me. I'm fascinated by the dichotomy in nature, that is, it's reality. To question fairness would be naive and to deny reality.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 14:00:09:
Hi FW,
"Isn't that the nature of philosophy?"
Yes, absolutely. To me people that don't wonder, that don't ask are shutting themselves off from life.
_______
"I'm fascinated by the dichotomy in nature, that is, it's reality."
I am too, and that's why I think I love foreign films so much. They explore this duality, they tell you it exists but don't usually attempt to explain why. But it's so stimulating.
_______
"To question fairness would be naive and to deny reality."
I feel at times that is very true, but that there are other times in one's life that this very basic question automatically gets asked -- "why me, why my family, why why why" -- it's human nature, in my less than humble opinion.
______
To me when you question how and why the universe is the way it is, it's like you're asking about the nature and perhaps the definition of spirituality. What are we doing here, why are we here, why are things the way they are -- these are great questions. If I've made another erroneous assumption, please excuse me.
And I'm curious, do you adhere to any particular religious or spiritual belief system?
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 13:33:58:
Given my "alien" heritage, I think it's hard to separate the cruelty of nature from the benevolence of nature--it's a wholistic circle, after all. And within this organic circle, things are destroyed in a creative, constructive way. From this perspective, there is no cruelty or death, nor "denial," as you put it. It is this constantly creative and destructive circle (or the dao) that we attemp to stay in harmony with. To be able to do that, one has to get rid of one's limited vision as an individual, and get rid of the ego--so to speak. Then boundry disappears, and one can merge with everything as a whole.
Of course, it's easier said than done, and I certainly don't claim I know all the answers, or ANY answer, for that matter. But at least, this is my interpretation of the Dao.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 13:39:11:
Really? There is much more to this? Wow. Now I get greedy and want to read it ALL.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by gabriella [151.890] on July 25, 2004 at 14:15:43:
Hi gabriella,
I've just thought of another way to explain what I try to do here. The threads between bing and I about the short piece of the poor bear story called Wildness, or the Woody piece on isolation, present a glimpse of what I'm up to. In each case she notes themes, concepts, ideas about what the story means or says. Now, if you imagine this process in reverse, where these concepts and themes are discussed first, and then the story is created using those ideas, you'll see right through me...
"And I'm curious, do you adhere to any particular religious or spiritual belief system?"
No, I just make it up as I go along...kind of like looking at the blank page.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by bing [312.10] on July 25, 2004 at 15:16:38:
Thank you bing, that was an excellent response.
Sometimes the intellect gets in the way (but I'm going to take a little egotistical satisfaction from pulling that out of you).
Well, it's dinner time, and I have to get into the wholistic flow and go devour a fish.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by bing [312.10] on July 25, 2004 at 15:19:42:
Just give me a couple of years and I'll tell you when you can pick up the book.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 11:13:47:
I guess it depends on what causes the breakdown. As the machine ages things will wear out, which one may determine how peacefully we will go and what we do to extend life. I think that i don't want extreme measure, prolonging the inevitable but we never will know till we get there, as to what we will want to do or have done.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 08:32:23:
I hear you, I was still thinking that way just 7 or 8yrs ago.
In Reply to: Re: Project related question--another perspective posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 19:19:46:
An autographed copy? And dedicated to me?
LOL
In Reply to: Re: Project related question posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 19:10:28:
Hi FW,
Thanks for further explaining what you try to do here, it's nice of you to help me to understand.
"In each case she notes themes, concepts, ideas about what the story means or says. Now, if you imagine this process in reverse, where these concepts and themes are discussed first, and then the story is created using those ideas, you'll see right through me..."
I will take another look at your interactions with Bing tomorrow and see what I can glean. My guess is that it shouldn't be too difficult for me to grasp the concept. However, feel free to correct me as you have been till I get it right.
As far as being able to see right through you, I'm not so sure I could, but it's certainly a goal to strive for, isn't it? 
In Reply to: Re: Project related question (Archive in wellness.) posted by FW [28.218] on July 25, 2004 at 08:35:50:
Thanks, FW.
Yep, and I do not agree that it is lacking indocumentation because it is not. Dr. Frieze et all research publications, published in the most popular conventional medical journals for the past 20 years, has documented it but that old "Tolstoy Effect" continues to be a powerful (de)motivater.
The problem seems to be that there is a LOT more money in treating conditions' symptoms than teaching people to avoid them. Until that changes the current system will continue to ignore this trend.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Walt
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